Flaws of secular dogma

Celebrated atheist Richard Dawkins has been in Wellington. Ian Harris went to hear him speak.

Richard Dawkins. Supplied photo.
Richard Dawkins. Supplied photo.
One of the most promising events proposed for Wellington's International Festival of the Arts this week didn't happen.

This would have been a dialogue between the champion of science and atheism, former Oxford professor Richard Dawkins, and leading New Zealand theologian Sir Lloyd Geering, but Dr Dawkins refused to take part.

That is a pity. These are highly intelligent men.

They would have found much common ground, for example on evolution, the contribution of science to the modern world, and some shameful excesses, even evils, perpetrated in the name of religion over the centuries.

Sir Lloyd knows rather more about the world's religions than Dr Dawkins, however, and he would not have come across as the atheistic stereotype of religious folk as superstitious, naive, credulous, and block-headed deniers of scientific truth.

A quality dialogue might have revealed the roots of Dr Dawkins' fervid scientism - the belief that the methods and assumptions of science are applicable to all fields of study - that makes him want to wipe religion off the face of the planet.

And why he refuses to show the slightest interest in any broader understanding of the positive role of God and religion in the world's cultures.

Among his supporters, this ignorance is upheld as a badge of honour.

Leading English philosopher A.C. Grayling parried a scathing review of Dr Dawkins' book, The God Delusion, by saying, in effect: why should he waste his time informing himself about "the pre-scientific, rudimentary metaphysics of our forefathers" when he knows it's all rubbish?

To which another academic retorted: "It is a great shame that the most public defenders of secular thinking show all the dogmatic arrogance and evidence of closed minds that they associate with religious thinking."

But perhaps that helps explain why, as prominent English religious scholar Karen Armstrong notes in her latest book, Dr Dawkins and other atheist crusaders "refuse, on principle, to dialogue with theologians who are more representative [than fundamentalists and extremists] of mainstream religion".

She finds their analysis shallow, prejudiced, intemperate, theologically illiterate, and all but silent on the great moral questions of justice, compassion, poverty, and political oppression.

Their hardline scientific naturalism turns out to be the mirror image of the religious fundamentalism to which it is reacting.

Even more trenchant is English and cultural history professor Terry Eagleton.

He lumps Dr Dawkins in with Christopher Hitchens, another fulminator against religion and author of God is Not Great, as "Ditchkins" and says: "When it comes to God, liberal rationalists who are otherwise accustomed to enforcing fine discriminations are permitted to be as sloppy and raucous as they please."

Sadly, however, "this straw-targeting of Christianity is now drearily commonplace among academics and intellectuals - that is to say, among those who would not allow a first-year student to get away with the vulgar caricatures in which they indulge themselves with such insouciance".

Prof Eagleton charges Ditchkins with a Pollyanna-ish view of human progress, of failing to appreciate the role of the creative imagination in both science and religion, and of regarding religion as "a botched attempt to explain the world, which is like seeing ballet as a botched attempt to run for a bus".

Could Dr Dawkins be that bad? I wondered. So I joined the throng who flocked to hear him during Writers and Readers Week* in Wellington on Wednesday this week.

On this occasion, Dr Dawkins chose to soft-pedal his anti-religious rhetoric and focus on science.

He was masterly in explaining the improbability of our own existence, the even greater improbability that life came into being at all, and, when it did, the predictability of evolution through natural selection over hundreds of millions of years.

But he could not resist the odd sideswipe.

The origin of the cosmos required no creator, except for "a certain kind of naive mind". Anyone who could not accept the massive evidence for evolution was "plain thick".

Religion was no guarantor of morality: "Criminals are nearly all religious - look at the mafia, look at the Roman Catholic Church."

Prof Grayling describes the ethical stance of atheism as one based on respect, concern, trust, fairness and honesty.

Dr Dawkins' wild generalisations managed, quite gratuitously, to showcase the opposite.

Countering such distortions, Prof Eagleton can have the last word: "Christian faith, as I understand it, is not primarily a matter of signing on for the proposition that there exists a Supreme Being, but the kind of commitment made manifest by a human being at the end of his tether, foundering in darkness, pain and bewilderment, who nevertheless remains faithful to the promise of a transformative love."

*The Writers and Readers Week is part of the New Zealand International Arts Festival in Wellington which runs until March 21.

- Ian Harris is a journalist and commentator

dawkins

Sorry, why does Dawkins not just ignore the Christians? For a start, how about the fact that scientists are needed to speak out against creationism or 'Intelligent Design'? I, for one, am terrified that 50% of the population in the world's remaining superpower believe that the Bible is real, that the Earth is only 6000 years old and can twice elect a President who professes that his foreign policy was based on his biblical beliefs. There are so many other obvious reasons why religion in any form should be opposed and exposed at every level it infects but unfortunately faith and reason are ultimately mutually exclusive. One day we might get to grips with the idea that the universe is completely indifferent to our existence. You are born, you live, you die. Life is random and no, it's often not fair. Get over it and get on with it. If only the energy, time and money wasted by believers in an afterlife could be applied to the real world.

Blind science

I am a total "scienceophile" but I see in Dawkins (and some of these correspondents) the same intolerance and inability to fairly evaluate a temporal situation as there exists in those they are so quick to decry.
I am an avowed atheist, but what Dawkins and his apologists fail to realise is that the very learned and wise Prof. Geering has for many decades been trying to work the same cause as they are, but from the inside, with compassion for those that such a message may leave bewildered, baseless and hurting.
Lloyd Geering has, to my mind, been attempting to get Christians to understand they are following a philosophy, not a cause etched in stone by some supernatural power. That Biblical stories have little relevance past the message of justice, fairness and decency preached by some carpenter's son from Galilee. As such, Lloyd Geering's teachings probably have much more chance of achieving Dawkin's own aims of freeing mankind from blind devotion to ridiculous phantasms and outrageous stories than Dawkin's own intransigence and fundamentalist intolerance of all things 'spiritual' ever will.
I repeat my earlier assertion. If Dawkins is to continue to be a true scientist he must remain open to most, if not all, options. To dismiss Lloyd Geering out of hand is to show an ignorance about what another very worthy scholar has been trying to achieve over very many years. It demeans Dawkins to be so elitist just as it demeans his followers to not know or care what Geering's history contains.

Dawkins is a scientist, yet...

Dawkins is a scientist, yet he continually spends time fussing about the people he despises - that is, those who believe in God, or a god. If he despises these people so much, why is he so concerned about them - to the extent of writing books about them? Why doesn't he just ignore them?

Geering, although he worked for the Presbyterian Church for a number of years, has often said that he isn't really a believer anyway. Which makes him, apart from the science, pretty much on the same side of thinking as Dawkins.

Regrettably, although some scientists 'achieve distinction by continually questioning and revising existing ideas' not all of them do. Many scientists adhere to their own 'doctrines' long past their use-by date; history is full of examples. Science is never as pure as its fans would like us to believe. Because it is done by human beings, it is often flawed.

Paul Beauvais, in this morning's paper, wonders why people hate Richard Dawkins. The opposite question might be asked: why does Dawkins himself hate so many people? This has been obvious from his articles, reports, blogs and books for some years. If his recent lecture was about evolution and evolution only that would be fine.

However, anyone who knows Dawkins and his writings will know that he rarely sticks to his own area of expertise, but often uses his platforms for ranting about religion.

Flaws of secular dogma

This is hilarious. How can Harris seriously suggest that Geering and Dawkins could debate? Dawkins is a scientist, Geering believes in imaginary friends. The fact that 'theology' can even be studied at universities is archaic. What about a degree in UFO study or astrology? They all have equal merit - that is to say none.
The basic difference between science and religion is that scientists achieve distinction by continually questioning and revising existing ideas, while faith is a mindless adherence to unchallengeable 'truths'.

Flaws of secular dogma

I think you can forget Dawkins, he has become overwhelmed by his own message, and has become as blinded to commonsense as any on the other side who call themselves pastor, father, or even worse, bishop.

But Dawkins' message is the right one. When and where has there been any proof of an involved god, a caring god, a worker of miracles. To put your faith in "hand-me-down" fables which have been seen to be palpably ridiculous is a sad thing. No "miracles" have been seen since the art of investigating real evidence has been manifest, which has shown the inaccuracies inherent in the principle of peoples' wants versus what actually happened.

The basic Christian message (delivered by Jesus) is a good philosophy, pre-dated by other good philosophies from the likes of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. Some of the OT philosophies (beating your wife, slaying your disobient daughter, keeping slaves etc.) are not going to pass muster in any modern society other than, perhaps, fundamentalist Islam and no-one wants to go there other than fundamentalist Muslims, most of whom seem to be male interestingly enough.

Were the world to live within these primary dictates of the likes of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism then we would see the world far better off than what we now experience.

But to take that brief scant piece of scripture and transform it into proof of some omniscient, omnipotent being is ludicrous when patently, on a daily basis, sweet innocence is trampled over by natural disaster, ignorance and evil. Where is the caring, individual god in all the mess that happens. Where was god when the bus, full of good Catholic chidren, got swept into the deluge of the flooded river in northern Italy?

So is god not a Catholic? Wrong, we are all born, live and die. Some of us far too briefly, some of us cruelly, some of us lamely, some of us with a passion. But to think that there is a god out there watching us all is ridiculous.

I am sorry that Dawkins didn't meet with Professor Geering. The latter has always been one of my own, and my family's champions. Even though he knows it not. For Dawkins to be so exclusive demeans him. 

[Abridged]

Stalin was an atheist

Was an athiest. If we are talking about human kindness and compassion. He is someone you won't find Dawkins debating either.

Ian Harris v Richard Dawkins

This article uses selected quotes and manipulative language to portray Professor Dawkins a closed-minded atheistic extremist and then wraps the whole debate up in the context of atheist ‘ignorance’. Every branch of science has, for the last 150 years, been slowly chipping away at religion as an answer to the fundamental question of ‘where did I come from’. While the idea of a magical man in the sky waving his finger and bringing life into existence is comforting to many, it is simply not supported by any rational or reasonable examination of the scientific facts.

Richard Dawkins has devoted his life to explaining how the complex existence and evolution of life has happened by drawing on the most rigorous of scientific methods and research. To dismiss this staggeringly large body of work is where the real closed-mindedness is, while the claim that he or any other serious scientific scholar has not applied the same careful methodology to the study of god and religion is absurd. People have every right to their faith, but they do not have the right to misrepresent the facts of a debate in order to advance their own agenda.

[Abridged]

Evangelical atheism

Richard Dawkins is a bit religious about his atheism, isn't he.

Richard Dawkins

Well, I don't often agree with much of what Ian Harris has to say, so it's interesting to find him on the opposite side of the camp to Richard Dawkins, and to be able to agree with him on pretty much every point. I suspect Dawkins refused to debate with Geering for the same reasons he's refused to debate with other people who have any degree of intelligence. He's got himself so stuck in his little atheists-are-good-and-right world that anything of value he ever had to say has long since departed. Dawkins is rapidly going down the tubes in terms of respect. He recently wrote on his blog that people had to stop using bad language and saying rubbish, because the site was supposed to be for reasoned argument. Unfortunately they're only going where their leader has led...