Not just a rugby stadium?

Rear columns for the north stand of the Forsyth Barr Stadium in Awatea St, Dunedin, rise from the ground in this photo, taken just before Christmas. Carisbrook Stadium Trust development director Darren Burden said work had continued on the site over the holiday period, with fewer workers, though work was back "in full swing" yesterday. Photo by Gerard O'Brien.
Rear columns for the north stand of the Forsyth Barr Stadium in Awatea St, Dunedin, rise from the ground in this photo, taken just before Christmas. Carisbrook Stadium Trust development director Darren Burden said work had continued on the site over the holiday period, with fewer workers, though work was back "in full swing" yesterday. Photo by Gerard O'Brien.
The much-vaunted multipurpose nature of the Forsyth Barr Stadium has been both heralded by proponents and mocked by opponents as the building rapidly takes shape on Dunedin's waterfront.

But stadium chief executive David Davies believes the facility can be more than just a home for Otago rugby, and that early feasibility studies did not take into account the full range of uses to which the stadium could be put.

Early suggestions it could be used for visits by the Dalai Lama were widely sneered at.

The debate over what, apart from rugby, could be held there has not waned since the project began.

In 2007, the Carisbrook Stadium Trust received a feasibility and economic impact report on the stadium from consultants Horwath HTL.

The report was unequivocal in its assertion rugby and cricket were the only two sporting codes that could attract significant numbers to a stadium in New Zealand.

But with cricket ruled out in the rectangular facility, it was up to rugby to bring in the punters.

The report said football, through Otago United, could attract up to 1000 people for a game.

Rugby league was not considered a possibility.

Netball, basketball, tennis, beach volleyball and boxing were considered but not included, because the Edgar Centre met requirements for these.

The Horwath report is one of the reasons many opponents of the stadium in Dunedin scathingly refer to it as a "rugby stadium", rather than a multipurpose stadium which is a description that has been used to sell the concept.

David DaviesThe Otago Daily Times put the matter to Mr Davies - who will run the stadium and will soon be taking charge of the city's other venues - and asked how he planned to make the multipurpose tag a reality.

The job will differ from Mr Davies' previous tasks.

He was in charge of the Manchester Arena, for instance, but Manchester City has a population of about 450,000, and Greater Manchester about 2.5 million, compared with the population of Otago, which is less than 200,000.

But Mr Davies was confident scoring tries would not be the only activity under the ethylene tetrafluoroethylene (ETFE) roof, and the right events would attract the crowds.

Asked about the analysis in the Horwath HTL report, Mr Davies was quick to say he did not want to raise people's expectations unnecessarily.

But the report was based on a set of assumptions, "as they saw it", and was probably too conservative with its forecasts of events the stadium might attract.

For example, the stadium could host the Walking with Dinosaurs arena spectacular, based on the BBC programme of the same name.

The spectacular has played around the world, including Australia.

It features full-sized animatronic dinosaurs in a 96-minute show that has engendered some rave reviews.

It was the sort of event that could not be put on in Dunedin without a facility like the stadium, he said.

"With the roof, I can't see why we can't do it here.

"I don't see why Horwath didn't see that," Mr Davies said.

Other events that raised possibilities for the Dunedin stadium included the Race of Champions, held at Wembley Stadium, where nearly 2000 tonnes of tarmac was used to create a purpose-built circuit for the Formula 1, touring and NASCAR vehicles and motorcycles participating in the event.

In Hamilton, Waikato Stadium was transformed into a full-sized supercross track using 6000 tonnes of dirt trucked in for the event.

At the Manchester Arena, two temporary swimming pools had been set up to hold the world swimming championships.

"That kind of thing, I suspect, has been absent in some of the planning," Mr Davies said.

"I'm not suggesting we build a pool in the pitch, but I don't see why we couldn't do it on top."

Mr Davies said the examples he was using were possibilities for consideration, and highlighted the flexibility of the stadium space.

"Individually, they are not necessarily appropriate, but the motor racing probably is."

Mr Davies said the Wembley event was viable only because it attracted 100,000 over two nights.

He accepted he had a smaller population to work with, but said the right events could attract the crowds.

A motorsport event at the stadium, for instance, would be closer to the Waikato Stadium example, held on dirt, and he believed it could attract as many as 25,000 to 30,000 people.

"You have to be flexible in your approach."

Asked about the Horwath report's view that sports other than rugby were less likely to use the stadium, Mr Davies said he did not think rugby league, for example, would be absent from the stadium.

"The Warriors have done exhibition games that have been quite successful, and it would seem there is some enthusiasm on their side [to play in Dunedin]".

Rugby league was "probably as good, if not better" than rugby union at community programmes, he said.

There could be "a series of experiences" around a league game at the stadium.

The experiences could include league clinics before and after the game, clinics at schools for children and their teachers, and dinners with the "characters of the sport".

League was more inclined to take a "missionary approach", and clinics left a legacy.

The All Whites' entrance to the World Cup could provide opportunities for football in the short term.

However, in terms of the future of the game in relation to the stadium, Mr Davies said, "Let's have that conversation in a year's time".

Otago United had "some way to go in marketing terms" before the club could start attracting numbers for the stadium.

Mr Davies expanded on his plan to have every child in the region come to the stadium, and said his intention was not just for them "to have a gawp".

Instead, he hoped the stadium could be a backdrop for lessons during visits, with classes held at the facility when schools visited.

"That's about real social engagement."

david.loughrey@odt.co.nz

Just a rule of thumb

Fungus is right - it's just a rule of thumb, and only really valid for some types of business. It's just something you use on cocktail napkins - you ought to have a better handle on the real numbers before you actually start hiring people or spending money. I've never been involved in writing a business plan based anything so vague

Not that profitable

B&Bs don't make a lot of money these days unless they are situated somewhere like Queenstown.
Anyone thinking of setting up a B&B needs to have a full time job as well, because tourists are choosing to hire camper vans. Haven't you noticed the huge increase of these camper vans on our roads?

I am an owner of a B&B that just provides a little bit of extra pocket money occasionally, and if I had to pay extra money for rates, I would be in debt up to my neck.

And yes, I am encouraging the people of Dunedin to close their doors to visitors to their city for the Rugby World Cup, because they are only being used by a council that has no morals.

Sigh ...

I said that Gallipoli was a disaster - nothing more. It was a disaster for the ANZACs who fought there and it was a disaster militarily. We were used as cannon fodder by the British who in a misguided feat of Boy's Own derring-do went charging into a horrendous mistake. You can just imagine Blackadder rolling his eyes before he gets seconded to Belgium.

But it did help us as a nation understand that we should control our own destiny rather than be at the beck an call of a dying empire.

What I didn't do was say anything about WW2 - you seem to be making that bit up.

More importantly, I was answering your original question: "Can we compare Gallipoli with the Peninsula?" The answer is "yes" - putting guns on the peninsula to ward off non-existant Russians was about as effective as Gallipoli was in invading Turkey, though the gun plan resulted in a much lower waste of human life.

'On my way out the door......one more thing'

'Calc', I was fully aware that my last posting went out with 'justify' mis-spelt. The reason is that I'm on 'dial-up' and it is quite rare for me to get off a complete message, as I would like, before being cut-off by either 'Telstra-Clear' or the ODT, I know not which.

So any proof-reading is pretty cursory, which resulted in my not risking the extra delay to correct 'justify' before uploading it, with an increased likelihood of my having been cut-off in the meantime.

Something like one posting in three, of mine has succeeded in uploading, for which fact you probably have reason to be thankful.

As for your explanation regarding 'EEK', I have my suspicions that it was a 'typo' at all. However, don't lambast me for holding that view. I'll leave it up to other contributors to this thread, plus casual readers who don't contribute, to draw their own conclusions as to the plausibility of your explanation.
'Sayonara'

Competitiveness

I think you also kind of avoid the issue that we all have to deal with here in Dunedin - the stadium rates makes local business less competitive.
If you have, say, a B&B or maybe a local storage business then it's not an issue - you're competing against other similar local businesses.

But if you're trying to compete on a larger stage, something we need from our economy, you're being taxed at a different rate than if you were located in Christchurch, for example, which has an extremely tempting programme to encourage companies to locate there.

Suppose you're renting a $5m space in Dunedin - you're paying ~$3500 more in rates for the stadium through your landlord than you wouldn't be paying in Christchurch - and your rates/rent are going to go up by 7% this year ($3300) and 10% ($5000) the following year.

Because of the geographical limitations being in Dunedin places on us, we should be trying to lower the burdens on local business to be less than those in Christchurch rather than raising them.

Economics

of course we should avoid the rugby people - look at the terrible debt they've run up in Dunedin already, we don't want to encourage more of them.

I'd feel differently if I saw them taking on a larger share of the burden the stadium has put on our city - where's the fund raising for the stadium? The bake sales? The raffles? The quick whiparounds at Carisbrook games?

We just paid the ORFU $7m for Carisbrook, so it's not as if they can't afford something. But there's been nothing - instead they've just had their tame councillors rifle through my wallet.

I want to see the ORFU to work hard to fund the rugby stadium - stump up with at least $40m - that will save the DCC another $40m in interest if they hurry.

We'd all win, and you guys would earn some respect. MKaybe then we'd be all be a bit more favourable to your visitors. BTW, selling yourselves the best seats on the cheap isn't raising money for the stadium - it's creating more debt for the city.

Read the rest of the postings

Read the rest of the postings that disagree with you. It is a common measure used when business plans new ventures. Of course there are variations, but as a planning tool, it is the most commonly used.

My Great Grandfather

My Great Grandfather thanks you for sullying his memory and efforts defending you and yours as "naive and wasteful". Is it your contention that my Grandfather in WW2 also wasted his time defending the people of Britain? Were we supposed to stand and watch as Britain was crushed by Germany, in some effort to express our "Kiwiness"?

Remember Britain was still our major trading partner. To ignore this was economic death. However, I'm sure that being warm and cosy in the fact the we're "Kiwis" would have kept the wolf from the door.

You seem to express a singular view that New Zealand shouldn't give a tinker's cuss about anyone else in the world but ourselves. That attitude lacks humanity.

Cup of coffee economics

I was working on the average rates increase, Mike. It's less than a cup of coffee per week for a $250,000 property (average property value). If the property is twice that value i.e. $500,000, it is logical that 2 cups of coffee (around $7) may be needed for the calculation.

It distresses me that you are actually agreeing with the view that overseas visitors should be shunned and made to feel unwelcome in some lame attempt to make a point after the Stadium is built. What is the point? They won't know or care about any of it.

They are here to visit New Zealand, any greeting other than a generous one is to tar the city as backward-thinking, grim and bitter.

Perhaps you can ask where they are from and if they are New Zealanders you can save your unpleasantness for them, and welcome just the foreign tourists.

Let me address the 'facts'

Glorious. Let me address each of your 'facts'.

Knowledge is the essential opposite of ignorance. With knowledge comes the ability to discern emotional intransigence and woolly words from fact. Knowledge is always power, the power to decide the best path to take.

Wisdom, on the other hand is the result of experience making those decisions. To some correspondents chagrin, many of the current council have vast experience to accompany their knowledge, hence no ignorance is evident here. Vote them out and that wisdom is gone, I guess.

But, of course, if your predictions come to fruition and the negative and bitter triumph over the positive and ambitious, Dunedin will become Gore by the Sea. Which is of course democracy in action.

Ignorance is not in play here. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't reflect ignorance, just disagreement.

Secondly, power was given to the current council by the voters - in other words, a mandate. Is it your preference that an elected body has no power to make essential decisions for the progression of the city?

Thirdly, hubris is just name calling and reflects your dislike of those that don't agree with your stance. I have seen more examples of hubris from the completely "self-appointed" STS and DRHA than any body that was actually given the mandate to speak for the people.

Ambition; I would have thought that an ambitious council can only benefit the citizens of Dunedin. It is not a crime to be ambitious, although from some of the regular correspondents it would seem ambition and education are indeed crimes of some note.

 

Where do you get your coffee?

I don't know where you get your coffee but you're paying way too much. According to the DCC's rates calculator a B&B with a $500k valuation  will be paying $350 a year towards the stadium - that's $7 a week.  I'm guessing you drink those expensive beans that they pass through civets first ....

Why do earth do you think that people who've already been forced to pay for this overpriced second stadium that they don't want will welcome rugby people, the very people who've forced this abomination upon us, into our homes?

They're already reaching into our wallets to pay for their stadium - if we're not careful they'll run off with the family silver, or from what I've seen of them downtown, just be sick on the carpet.

Some sort of bed would be appropriate

The Tent City has always been a venue for after match and pre-match entertainment, i.e. money for the Dunedin economy. It is not an accommodation venue.

Your suggestion that B & B's are going to close as a result of a rate increase is laughable. An average of the price of a cup of coffee, per week, is going to drive them under?

You state "Don't expect the people of Dunedin to open up their homes to these tourists." This indicates a xenophobic, unwelcoming attitude to tourists that you seem to want to promulgate amongst your fellow conspirators. Are you suggesting that the good people of Dunedin should not make these overseas visitors welcome and just ignore them?

I know that community rugby clubs will welcome these travellers, because that is what good people do - generousity is in their base nature.
Are you encouraging the City to close its doors to these tourists and their dollars? Are you seriously intent on reeking vengeance on visitors to the City for a decision the Council has made, given a mandate to do so from the electorate at the last election, but you do not agree with?

This kind of response displays a genuine selfishness, I thought had died out in New Zealand some time ago. Clearly I was wrong.

My comments

My comments in this sense agreed with you, then, did they not? I did take issue with your claim that the long-lived of the populace have a monopoly on common sense.

I don't think I twisted any comment here, merely stated a different view. Is it your suggestion that if someone disagrees with you and makes an analogy using your own words it is "twisting"?

Ian as far as "shortcomings"

My apologies for the typo, my fingers are getting tired. Although, if the entire point of your posting was to point out my lack of typing abilities, well done, victory is yours.

But you might want to check out your own first paragraph, "justify" has an 'i' in it.

I look forward to your comeback with thesaurus in hand.

"It shows" - What does that mean?

"It shows": What on earth is that meant to mean? Is it the North Island you have a problem with, or just being shown as rather petty?

Again Calvin, if you point the finger at others for their perceived faults, i.e being less qualified than you to make a judgement, you will get more of the same straight back.

Would you expect less, when you question not only a persons background but the place where they were educated?

Or is it your contention that you can accuse folk at your leisure and make comments from "the University of Hard Knocks" without consequence.

I'm off

'Calc', I have become fed-up with your endless peversion of what everyone else contributes to your own ends while you attempt by what you see as clever rhetoric to justfy the indefensible - close to 80 percent of the city's population dragooned into ratepayer support of professional sport, in the assumption that 'once they've tried it, they'll like it'.

I could bandy words around until the cows come home, with no more positive outcomes than have been achieved to date.

So, I'm off, as they say, to fresher, greener and more productive pastures, but certainly not in defeat, as you are bound to claim.

However, from your most recent posting which pointed out my many shortcomings, as you see them, I have one comment to make, and I hope you heed it with due regard to the qualifications you claim to have.

That is, the impoverished classes 'eke' out a living, they don't 'eek' out a living as you saw fit to point out. 'Eek' usually accompanies a comic-book rendition of a lady standing on a chair when confronted by a mouse.

Ciao

Worried about Calc's time?

Not really, but during ad breaks I am sometimes briefly concerned about his/her grip on reality.
Knowledge is power, up to a point.
However there is no shortage of examples throughout history of people with both ignorance and power.

When ignorance, power, hubris, relentless ambition and belief in the flattery of crumb-grabbers and courtiers are combined the results for the general public have seldom been good.

A gentle reminder, Calc: knowledge without wisdom is power to do really dumb things.

Read it again

Calc, please read things thoroughly before commenting. I would have thought this was standard practice for someone that works in a university and is as intelligent as you tell us you are.

I clearly said that "OK, Dunedin is not on par with these sites" in reference to my comments about some of the battlefields of Europe that I mentioned.

You missed the point, which was that many people have an interest in military hardware/installations and sites and will pay money to see them.

Thats the point I was making and I clearly stated that.
You're ability to twist people's comments are worthy of any British tabloid's forum - not the ODT's.

Uninitiated indeed

So it is not a certificate, but a 'degree' earned at a North Island University. Congratulations. It shows.
Where did I get my business degree from? The University of Hard Knocks. Started studying there 62 years ago. Still am.

Gallipoli was a stupid disaster

Gallipoli was not 'noble'. It was a stupid, wasteful disaster. So many died for some irrelevant naive ideas of Britishness and Empire. They were led by incompetent English officers who considered us cannon fodder. It didn't save NZ from invasion (were the Turks about to take Port Chalmers?) any more than the Peninsula guns protected us from the non-existent Russians invaders.

What it did eventually do was help us realise that we're not British. We're Kiwis, and we have to make our own way in the world.

Business overheads

Assuming that business overeads are twice a person's salary is ridiculous. It's not a 'one size fits all' formula. There is no formula that covers the huge variations in business - full stop.

Suffice to say that a salary is only one part of a business' overheads, but it may be a very small part or a very large part.

For the uninitiated...

Calvin, for the uninitiated its called a 'degree' not a certificate, and if your really need to know I got it at a North Island University as a post graduate adjunct to my under graduate degrees.

Not a "Kornie Packet" at all. It was quite a nice place really.

Seeing as you asked me I might ask where you obtained your Business Degree from?

Don't worry about my time

Don't worry about my time. It only takes a couple of minutes to rip through the emotional arguments postulated by yourself and friends, then I can get back to business.

Thanks for the concern over my publishing record, Its quite good at the moment. Remember, knowledge is power.

Can we compare Gallipoli with the Peninsula?

Gallipoli, a noble place in our history where the Anzacs fought for our freedoms. Normandy where the world stood up to the tyranny of the Nazis. The Somme, where soldiers died in their millions to defend us.
I'm not sure this gun out on the Peninsula can really be an attraction that should be compared to those historical places.

Life experience, that can be taken many ways. Being alive a long time, I suppose certainly brings lessons, but unfortunately they can often be uninformed ones, if recent comments on business analysis are anything to judge "life experience" and "common sense" by.

Business in the 21st Century

Thank you to XR8 and MikeStk for pointing out that people who have actually operated a business and hold degrees in business do know a thing or two about overhead costs for professionals.

In my experience the doubling of a salary is a minimum; often it is much more, but as a guide line it is totally valid for business planning.

This is not the charge out rate, this is merely to break even. Once you add in profit margin per hour it rises again.

I'll give you a scenario. I have paid a professional $45 per hour. Add in all the levies and office costs, and insurances including professional indemnity. I would as a minimum charge him out at $90 per hour to break even. I would then add a modest 20% margin. This gives me $108 per hour excl. GST.

For the client I would normally charge $110 per hour excl GST. Everyone from plumbers, builders, lawyers, accountants, engineers, architects operate this way.

Business don't operate on the overall average for their staff. Each staff member is charged out at an appropriate rate, given their salary. i.e. the office junior is not charged out at the same rate as the head professional.

This is how modern business works - you may not like it but it is the same all over.

Rule of thumb

I think the 'double your salary' rule is a reasonable rule of thumb for quick estimations - and it's perfectly valid there.
As you point out avoiding the flash office and careful management of costs keeps that overhead down, I certainly don't pay 100% overhead in my business, more like 20% - that way more money goes into pay packets - but if I were planning a new business and trying to do the initial back of the envelope calculations to see if it was viable I'd probably use the same rule of thumb too

Maths?

Xr8 says to simply double the hourly rate to recover overheads is correct. What of a professional office located in an inner city premium rent prestigious building? Each staff member uses a computer, all are ACC levied etc.

Staff are paid an average of $25 per hour. Therefore that business should charge clients $50 per hour each labour unit sold. Tell that to your friendly lawyer or accountant.

Conversely, a business operating from a low rent suburban property employs a number of workers at $25 per hour, has one office girl, one computer, facilities shared with adjoining tenants. He charges $50 per hour for labour units sold.

Overheads are not just related to staff numbers or hours sold. Many businessess don't sell labour units; they are just costs, to be recovered in the markup on the product being sold. All retail suffers this.

Gun money

Well, it appears this whole "I'm much smarter than you and I'm prepared to write 1000 words to prove it" debate could go on indefinitely.

Allow me to clear up one thing for you; guns do make money. I say this as I have spent time in Gallipoli, Normandy and The Somme and have seen just how many military hardware and history buffs swarm to these places.

OK, Dunedin is not on par with these sites but further restorations to Fort Tairoa, when coupled with the Albatross experience, would definately bring in more money to Dunedin.

Anyone with any life experince or common sense at all will tell you that the stadium will never make money - just like all the other stadia around the world.

The maths are correct

The poster who wrote that it costs a company twice an employee's salary to employ that person is quite correct, and I am surprised at the ridicule that person received.

The additional costs come from such things as ACC levies, superannuation contributions, sick days, insurances, clothing allowances, and the direct and indirect costs of employing the person. Who do you think pays for your computer, telephone, your share of the workspace floor area, and so forth?

So, for every $25 an hour paid to an employee, $50 must be recovered by the company to cover the costs of that employee.

Must be a few of us with qualifications out of the "kornies packet".

Figures

I meant that the figures for the stadium are all estimates. It is this edifice that will bleed money; haemorrhage it in fact! I hope your publishing record is as prolific as your posts to the ODT comments pages! The VC won't be happy with all that time-wasting.

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